Dice Towers & Dice Roll Manipulation

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Dice Towers & Dice Roll Manipulation

Postby OldTymeGamer » Wed Mar 09, 2016 10:09 am

My apologies if this post is my second one, but I did not see it when I looked for responses.

So, here is my question: How possible is it to manipulate or pre-determine a dice roll using a dice tower. The tower is a known height and width. The number, angles and distances of and between the "rolling" boards inside of it are known, The dice have a known size, shape and weight. So, if you can control the drop speed, you should be able to drop a die with a two pip up and consistently get a four pip as my roll. Is this correct, or am I missing something?

With a cup, you have random bouncing irrespective of a shake speed that breaks the die or dice inertia.

Thoughts?

Regards,

Cole

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Re: Dice Towers & Dice Roll Manipulation

Postby Whiterook » Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:45 pm

It's all in the baffles.

In the majority of cases, with Dice Towers manufactured by professional companies, or highly skilled craftspeople...the dice will have sufficient (very good) randomization. Those made by folks that get specs from the Internet and cobble one together poorly may not be as reliable, but even in that latter case I don't see how you can predetermine a die result with use of a DiceTower.

Of course, another factor is the "style" of die, as those with sharp corners are a little easier to manipulate by a skilled cheat; but even those, in a properly designed and constructed Dice Tower should be near impossible to manipulate to predetermined results.

Another element in this discussion would be "slide"...... A Dice Tower with poorly placed and/or badly angled baffles will allow the dice to "slide" through the tower and perhaps increase the chances for landing the same way face up as when dropped in.

Yet another thing is "padded baffles"..... When you drop dice into a non-padded baffled tower, you will *hear* the bouncing....the 'action'....and to me, that's an indication that the tower is working at optimum. It can be argued that padded baffles, while quieter, reduce some of that action; but perhaps that little bit of trampoline action might compensate. But this is why I prefer a non-padded baffled tower.

So, to answer your question from my point of view....if you have a quality tower, you will have great randomization and I don't see how I is possible to manipulate the dice to have a certain outcome.

:mrgreen:

Now for the comedy side of the show: I got a set of dice from a company at a trade show, which had it's logo as the One pip. I used it in a game where low die was BAD, and I was being decimated. My opponent had a grin on his face, and I knew he was onto something I was missing...but was torturing me to figure it out myself......

The dice were weighted so the logic came up almost every roll!! :roll:
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Re: Dice Towers & Dice Roll Manipulation

Postby OldTymeGamer » Thu Mar 10, 2016 11:37 am

That is an awesome story about using fixed dice!

So, is there standardization of the dice and/or tower specifications? Or, required specifications based on the game or tourney? Seems like there could be a lot of game playing (excuse the intentional pun) in this area.

Also, when it comes to the dice tower, does size or girth / width matter? When I did an internet search on them, the come in many different sizes, materials, price points and colors. Some were really fancy.

I guess a similar question could be asked about dice. Does size and weight matter? Some dice get up to over $40 per pair. Also, is there a life to dice? How often should you replace them? For example, you replace your toothbrush every six months and golf spikes every eight rounds.

What dice do you like and recommend and why?

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Re: Dice Towers & Dice Roll Manipulation

Postby Whiterook » Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:42 pm

Well, I am by no means an expert but here's my 2-cents on the subject.

DICE:

You have precision dice and non-precision...and that just speaks to the manufacturing process. Precision dice are most typically "casino" dice, which are highly speced out with weight and size; there pips being drilled and re-filled with specific paints. Non-precision are molded, including the pips, dipped in paint and tumble sanded and polished to leave the pips filled and the outside smooth.

Dice come in all sizes, from the micro dice you used to see in old Avalon Hill games, to the big chunky casino dice. A member once mentioned that if you get casino dice, non-packaged for sale but rather fro a friend, give them a GOOD washing, as you'd do be surprised what's on them!

I get mine mostly from Chessex .... http://www.chessex.com/Dice/Opaque%20Dice/opaquemainpg.htm

But for the Gold standard, I highly recommend the Chrystal Caste....
http://www.crystalcaste.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=SFNT&Store_Code=CC

I've picked up a lot of my dice at game conventions. Also, reputable game stores often have name brands.

DICE TOWERS:
There are all kinds, all sizes. The best are ones that have a tray, in which the tower sits in and can be placed on its side in afterwards. Wood and Resin are the most typical, but there are ones made from everything from cheap clear plastic molded into a solid 'boot' shape; to ones made from old ASL boards!

There are some manufacturers that make them to their specs, but you will find as many variations in design as pebbles in the street. On the other side of the coin, there are a lot of craftsmen that make these. Some do it with high tech machinery (CNC machines), while others carve or cobble them together.

The latest influx of Towers I've seen are ones made on Laser Cutting machines. They pop'em out like kittens...but I think they look cheap.

TOURNEYS:
Some games (and therefore, their tournaments) require dice specific to their game (examples would be Flames of War and Memoir'44) and the tourney folk will damn near throw you to the curb if you show up with Sponge Bob SquarePants die from Walmart. Most tourneys however, just make sure you have legit and no weighted dice.

Towers are oft used, and whatever design you favor. They like them because the dice don't go flying across the table and onto the floor, sweeping up a few platoons along the way.
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Re: Dice Towers & Dice Roll Manipulation

Postby OldTymeGamer » Fri Mar 11, 2016 5:47 pm

So, are precision dice worth the money? Your recommended vendors don't suggest or advertise that their dice are "precision." The crystal shaped D6 was interesting, but looks like it is not tower compatible.

Also, what is the preferred dice size? As my near vision gets worse, the 42mm dice look great, but someone told me that they were meant to hang off my car's windshield mirror. What size works best with a dice tower?

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Re: Dice Towers & Dice Roll Manipulation

Postby Whiterook » Fri Mar 11, 2016 6:55 pm

Hahaaaaa :D I never thought of rolling fuzzy dice! Sweet!!!!

Are precision dice worth it? Yes...absolutely. Why? I'm anal on these type of things and want the best. Do I follow my own advice? No. Why? I'm married and haven't controlled my own money since 1984 :lol: Are they expensive? More so than standard good-quality dice (like I mentioned earlier), but not really 'break-the-bank' expensive. Now that we're talking about it? Now, I need precision dice. Who will get the blame for my buying them? You....good luck with my wife :lol: :shock:

There is no preferred dice size that is common to all....it preference. 14-16mm is the sweet spot, in my humble opinion. Based on what you say on comfortable viewing, I'd recommend 16mm.

DiceTowers: Your 40+mm fuzzy dice ain't got no chance; but all others up to 16mm should have no problems. Personally, I've come to prefer "Barrel Corner" dice since last year....they roll fantastically; and I also think they'd be best in a DiceTower (I only got my first DT a couple weeks ago).

You mention ASL: What I'm heading for, now that Pandora's Box has been blown wide open with C4, is.....

image.png
image.png (76.66 KiB) Viewed 798 times


http://ritterkrieg.com/product/asl-turns-30-battledice-16mm-german-2-dice/

Also see....

http://asl-battleschool.blogspot.com/p/16mm-battledice.html
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Re: Dice Towers & Dice Roll Manipulation

Postby OldTymeGamer » Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:20 pm

Thanks for the websites. The precision dice are about $25 a pair. Amazon had a set for $45. The $45 would be better spent on ASL starter kit #2.

The fuzzy dice don't get lost in the car, but are awkward to carry in your pockets.

The discussion on the Battle Dice site about the difference between rounded and sharp cornered (craps) dice was interesting.

One of the earlier websites you recommended had fixed dice that replaced the one pip with something else.

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Re: Dice Towers & Dice Roll Manipulation

Postby gocamels » Thu Mar 17, 2016 8:20 am

I've read - and it makes sense to me -that transparent dice generally are better quality than opaque, and will give more truly random result.

If you have ever seen the YouTube videos of people float testing their dice in salt water you have probably has the explanation. The biggest problem with dice rolling non-randomly is hidden air pockets inside the die, closer to one face. That would make that side of the die lighter and affect the rolls just the opposite of weighting one side.

With transparent dice, the bubbles are clearly visible, and those dice get rejected during the manufacturing process. With opaque dice, it isn't possible to catch those problems with a visual inspection.

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Re: Dice Towers & Dice Roll Manipulation

Postby McCoy » Thu Mar 17, 2016 8:45 am

Interesting thoughts there. I've never even considered just how different various dices is.
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